manuel [draw-a-line].
Draw-A-Line is an online art-selling platform that makes fine art accessible to all on a lower price strata and shipping everywhere. The startup democratizes art buying and collecting to an unprecedented audience, urging the need to let go of the obsolete division of online-art versus gallery-art and to bridge a balance between the two. Manuel Rademaker's startup is being met by a demand to understand art on a new level. "Disruption,” so desirable, so potential, and so powerful, has a golden price tag in today's Berlin, but is it necessarily better to make art as accessible as Spotify does to music? Online music-streaming may make music more accessible, but at what cost? Manuel's patient contemplation, grounded vocalization, and confident vision makes one thing clear: the answer to how to draw people into wanting to learn more about and struggle with the meanings of "art" is by creating a platform that tells the right stories. This is a departure from tales of excessive meaning.
Sometimes the text tries to be more complicated than it is, sometimes it's over-the-top, like, what the fuck is this?
a conversation.
[May 31, 2016]
> What are your thoughts on the surfacing discussion of online art-selling platforms, such as your DRAW-A-LINE, as “disruption,” or a powerful factor changing the way people treat art?
I’m not sure, I think that they try to make a distinction between this old world and this new world, offline versus online, but I think it's not about two worlds, it’s about one world. Of course for older people it’s harder to put them together, but I would say that for the younger generation that grew up with the Internet, it’s not just about online versus offline, it’s about putting them together. It makes sense both to have a gallery space and to have a website, I think it’s more about this, and not about what’s old-fashioned or not… I think it’s slowly--- in the States, people doing start-ups [like these], think that after two years it should be really successful, and I think it takes sometimes 10 years to make something really nice. And also how people sell or buy art, it takes decades, not two or three years, to establish, and sometimes they want to write an article… But I think this distinction is over the top.
I would say a lot of people are interested in artists or in artwork that are like brands, not as much about content but about so-and-so, I think it’s like collecting sneakers. Take “Highsnobiety”--- how they communicate art, it's a lot about just names, not content, and in a way it’s nice because more people are starting to be a part of this art thing, but sometimes it’s more about just names and not content. In the past I have been close to street art, it’s really not deep, just easy visual things on a simple concept, it’s nice but sometimes it’s boring, a lot of people just like easy things, like Instagram; next picture, next picture. And in a way that comes into art. Of course if you’re students or whatever, you sometimes like deeper stuff, but I think big institutions, they have this problem in the States, an approach that they want to serve really good art in the way of concepts and stuff, but the people want to see street art in the institution.
> Ideally there would be a balance – because high consumption and branding and sneaker aesthetic is easier, and you don’t have to do so much work to feel connected to it or relate to it, ideally you could feel that level of relation to the art that institutions want to introduce that are more conceptual. The issue or question is how to make this conceptual art accessible in the same way.
I agree, that's a good point.
> I see this tension or conflict in New York, but it’s much more pronounced because you can see it clearly in the demographic as well. But because of this causal, see-art-after-work culture, you’re already prepared for it, there’s more of an open mind for it here. I wonder if this is an environment that would nurture that kind of access, if you put conceptual art there it should work…but I guess it’s not that easy.
Berlin is more conceptual than, say, LA; there are people who are open-minded, not just in street art, but sometimes there is like these really crazy written texts about exhibitions and many people who really try to get into it. Sometimes the text [about the art and artist and show] tries to be more complicated than it is, sometimes its like over the top, like what the fuck is this?
> What are your thoughts on the surfacing discussion of online art-selling platforms, such as your DRAW-A-LINE, as “disruption,” or a powerful factor changing the way people treat art?
I’m not sure, I think that they try to make a distinction between this old world and this new world, offline versus online, but I think it's not about two worlds, it’s about one world. Of course for older people it’s harder to put them together, but I would say that for the younger generation that grew up with the Internet, it’s not just about online versus offline, it’s about putting them together. It makes sense both to have a gallery space and to have a website, I think it’s more about this, and not about what’s old-fashioned or not… I think it’s slowly--- in the States, people doing start-ups [like these], think that after two years it should be really successful, and I think it takes sometimes 10 years to make something really nice. And also how people sell or buy art, it takes decades, not two or three years, to establish, and sometimes they want to write an article… But I think this distinction is over the top.
I would say a lot of people are interested in artists or in artwork that are like brands, not as much about content but about so-and-so, I think it’s like collecting sneakers. Take “Highsnobiety”--- how they communicate art, it's a lot about just names, not content, and in a way it’s nice because more people are starting to be a part of this art thing, but sometimes it’s more about just names and not content. In the past I have been close to street art, it’s really not deep, just easy visual things on a simple concept, it’s nice but sometimes it’s boring, a lot of people just like easy things, like Instagram; next picture, next picture. And in a way that comes into art. Of course if you’re students or whatever, you sometimes like deeper stuff, but I think big institutions, they have this problem in the States, an approach that they want to serve really good art in the way of concepts and stuff, but the people want to see street art in the institution.
> Ideally there would be a balance – because high consumption and branding and sneaker aesthetic is easier, and you don’t have to do so much work to feel connected to it or relate to it, ideally you could feel that level of relation to the art that institutions want to introduce that are more conceptual. The issue or question is how to make this conceptual art accessible in the same way.
I agree, that's a good point.
> I see this tension or conflict in New York, but it’s much more pronounced because you can see it clearly in the demographic as well. But because of this causal, see-art-after-work culture, you’re already prepared for it, there’s more of an open mind for it here. I wonder if this is an environment that would nurture that kind of access, if you put conceptual art there it should work…but I guess it’s not that easy.
Berlin is more conceptual than, say, LA; there are people who are open-minded, not just in street art, but sometimes there is like these really crazy written texts about exhibitions and many people who really try to get into it. Sometimes the text [about the art and artist and show] tries to be more complicated than it is, sometimes its like over the top, like what the fuck is this?
> So How does DRAW-A-LINE work its text?
Our idea is not just to sell a product, it’s also about the story. For each artist we work with we sell a story, an interview or two, and we release an artist story on our website, it’s really important for us, not just about product or visual thing but about the backstory and what is behind it, it’s really important for us and people really appreciate this. Especially on the long-term, of course there are people who come to the site and click the buy button, but on the long-term it makes your project so different. For us, when you work together with the artist on a story, it’s much deeper, even though to get this edition done is more work. But we try to make this story not too big, sometimes it’s more art text and sometimes it’s more story --- I think its about trying out different editors to get a good balance and sometimes you have to spend time… I think it works quite well because when we bring the artist to Berlin, we have one week or ten days, we have a lot time to get a good art history, and not just fifteen minutes. We do interviews on our own, but sometimes we outsource it. I think [finding editors] is about networking, we have one friend and his friend has another friend, but also like Franziska from YSSO, because you asked me about how we get this balance, she’s really into interviews but not so connected to art professionally, which is sometimes really interesting because the questions [she asks] are so different and it’s more easy to understand. It's a good way for us to have different editors with different backgrounds. I would say because we also didn’t start traditionally from art history, we are very free with how we interact with the art world. If we think the editor is really good, regardless of their art history background we work with them. Too many people do the same things. I like to do things that bring together people who are separated.
> Is most of your energy focused on the website and selling or also with connecting artists?
It’s not a big deal for us to make a website or host an Instagram account. We are most interested to put our energy into this “art thing,” but people who have art experience for over 20 years and want to have a better idea of this “digital thing,” maybe it’s more difficult for them. It’s interesting, in the States, every good photo taken is already being posted on Instagram [as soon as its taken], whereas here, it’s more cautious. Our history, we are much more skeptical, for privacy reasons... can I link this guy on the picture or not… which is really different. Sometimes I like how it works in the U.S., and sometimes I like how it is here.
It’s interesting, even interviews, people from the U.S. are just like, go for it, and here, it’s like, I’m not sure about this sentence… and they go over it many, many times, and sometimes this makes me really crazy because it takes ages just to put up an interview.
Our idea is not just to sell a product, it’s also about the story. For each artist we work with we sell a story, an interview or two, and we release an artist story on our website, it’s really important for us, not just about product or visual thing but about the backstory and what is behind it, it’s really important for us and people really appreciate this. Especially on the long-term, of course there are people who come to the site and click the buy button, but on the long-term it makes your project so different. For us, when you work together with the artist on a story, it’s much deeper, even though to get this edition done is more work. But we try to make this story not too big, sometimes it’s more art text and sometimes it’s more story --- I think its about trying out different editors to get a good balance and sometimes you have to spend time… I think it works quite well because when we bring the artist to Berlin, we have one week or ten days, we have a lot time to get a good art history, and not just fifteen minutes. We do interviews on our own, but sometimes we outsource it. I think [finding editors] is about networking, we have one friend and his friend has another friend, but also like Franziska from YSSO, because you asked me about how we get this balance, she’s really into interviews but not so connected to art professionally, which is sometimes really interesting because the questions [she asks] are so different and it’s more easy to understand. It's a good way for us to have different editors with different backgrounds. I would say because we also didn’t start traditionally from art history, we are very free with how we interact with the art world. If we think the editor is really good, regardless of their art history background we work with them. Too many people do the same things. I like to do things that bring together people who are separated.
> Is most of your energy focused on the website and selling or also with connecting artists?
It’s not a big deal for us to make a website or host an Instagram account. We are most interested to put our energy into this “art thing,” but people who have art experience for over 20 years and want to have a better idea of this “digital thing,” maybe it’s more difficult for them. It’s interesting, in the States, every good photo taken is already being posted on Instagram [as soon as its taken], whereas here, it’s more cautious. Our history, we are much more skeptical, for privacy reasons... can I link this guy on the picture or not… which is really different. Sometimes I like how it works in the U.S., and sometimes I like how it is here.
It’s interesting, even interviews, people from the U.S. are just like, go for it, and here, it’s like, I’m not sure about this sentence… and they go over it many, many times, and sometimes this makes me really crazy because it takes ages just to put up an interview.
> Why are you based in Berlin?
60%-70% of our buyers are outside of Germany. Similarly, 50% of the artists [we sell] are from Germany, from Spain, Denmark, Switzerland, mostly Europe, and a bunch from the U.S. too. For us, it’s how we think: the Internet works globally. It’s not a big deal, this is what the project is about. We want to make this stuff accessible for people all over the world. Having a base in Berlin makes it easier, of course, because there are a lot of cases where the artists have a reason to come here for an exhibit --- people and artists love to come to Berlin, especially from the U.S. I think it’s really important. Paris is also nice, but its much more expensive to work there, to produce, the printing studio or whatever is a totally different price range. In the end, when you want to settle, it comes down to much cheaper to be in Berlin. Maybe one thing that is sometimes hard is that because of this you don’t have so much pressure… since the weekend was hard because of partying, maybe we should start Tuesday… it’s lazier. Sometimes I think there should be more pressure, since nobody has to work really hard to pay their rent. I mean, of course there are people who work hard, but I would say there are a lot of people that chill a lot, which is nice, but my feeling is when you go to New York people are working really hard, and at the end you have a really nice product. [There is a] difference of pressure and tension…But I grew up close to Frankfurt and I came to Berlin 8 years ago. I would say it’s my home away from home. I just travelled to the States a few times, and I met a lot of artists there.
> Do you feel concerned about the lack of pressure here compared to the intense cities in the U. S.? Do you feel urgency?
Because of gentrification, it’s changing, I think it’s good that they are different, because I don't need a world where every place is the same. You have a city like Berlin and a city like New York. A lot of people in Berlin like this life. But I think its really cool in a way, Berlin --- if you have a regular job here you can do everything, go to the bars, the club, not like other cities where you have to work really hard to be a part of this life, and I think here is still balanced… not too expensive, but also not like, it’s affordable but there is something to do. There are cities where there is nothing, even if you can buy a house there, there is no culture, [which] makes a big difference.
> As you keep an eye out for your next project, do you feel Berlin is a place where artists are continuing to grow, where they feel free and there are no conformity limits, versus a stagnancy or conformity? Where do you place Berlin on this scale?
I think on the one hand, artists come here because it's a nice place, but of course in the last ten years it’s changed, it’s getting harder to find a studio now. You have to search for half a year and then it’s not central, or you have to bike for half an hour, and then to have a huge studio it’s impossible or you have to be super successful. It’s still easier compared to other cities like Paris, but it was definitely easier in the past, when there was so much free space, and now it’s changed a lot. I think it’s quite hard here to find a gallery to sell your stuff, because there are so many galleries and not so many collectors, there are not so many rich people when you go to the South, the rich people come and live in Mitte with their Mercedes. There are so many galleries here, so maybe it’s nice to be here as an artist producing, but to sell maybe it’s better to have someone sell for you. The Internet thing is about globally connecting the artists to their buyers. In the end everything comes together.
> What kind of people are buying?
I think most people are between thirty and forty, I think they’re interested in aesthetics, and are designers or whatever, the connections are on their own, they want to have something more, a good connection between aesthetics and the art world. Sometimes it’s really hard to get into it and sometimes the concept behind it is not too crazy. They are in a similar position, they are interested in art, interesting people want to be a part of it and they are still really hungry.
> It’s really cool that you are making this bridge happen so effectively.
We are not in a rush. We don't want to make something quick and be successful in a few years, it’s really important for us to work together and sell our stuff to nice people and get nice feedback from across the world, and I think it’s more about this and not just about business. I think this is really important for us.
60%-70% of our buyers are outside of Germany. Similarly, 50% of the artists [we sell] are from Germany, from Spain, Denmark, Switzerland, mostly Europe, and a bunch from the U.S. too. For us, it’s how we think: the Internet works globally. It’s not a big deal, this is what the project is about. We want to make this stuff accessible for people all over the world. Having a base in Berlin makes it easier, of course, because there are a lot of cases where the artists have a reason to come here for an exhibit --- people and artists love to come to Berlin, especially from the U.S. I think it’s really important. Paris is also nice, but its much more expensive to work there, to produce, the printing studio or whatever is a totally different price range. In the end, when you want to settle, it comes down to much cheaper to be in Berlin. Maybe one thing that is sometimes hard is that because of this you don’t have so much pressure… since the weekend was hard because of partying, maybe we should start Tuesday… it’s lazier. Sometimes I think there should be more pressure, since nobody has to work really hard to pay their rent. I mean, of course there are people who work hard, but I would say there are a lot of people that chill a lot, which is nice, but my feeling is when you go to New York people are working really hard, and at the end you have a really nice product. [There is a] difference of pressure and tension…But I grew up close to Frankfurt and I came to Berlin 8 years ago. I would say it’s my home away from home. I just travelled to the States a few times, and I met a lot of artists there.
> Do you feel concerned about the lack of pressure here compared to the intense cities in the U. S.? Do you feel urgency?
Because of gentrification, it’s changing, I think it’s good that they are different, because I don't need a world where every place is the same. You have a city like Berlin and a city like New York. A lot of people in Berlin like this life. But I think its really cool in a way, Berlin --- if you have a regular job here you can do everything, go to the bars, the club, not like other cities where you have to work really hard to be a part of this life, and I think here is still balanced… not too expensive, but also not like, it’s affordable but there is something to do. There are cities where there is nothing, even if you can buy a house there, there is no culture, [which] makes a big difference.
> As you keep an eye out for your next project, do you feel Berlin is a place where artists are continuing to grow, where they feel free and there are no conformity limits, versus a stagnancy or conformity? Where do you place Berlin on this scale?
I think on the one hand, artists come here because it's a nice place, but of course in the last ten years it’s changed, it’s getting harder to find a studio now. You have to search for half a year and then it’s not central, or you have to bike for half an hour, and then to have a huge studio it’s impossible or you have to be super successful. It’s still easier compared to other cities like Paris, but it was definitely easier in the past, when there was so much free space, and now it’s changed a lot. I think it’s quite hard here to find a gallery to sell your stuff, because there are so many galleries and not so many collectors, there are not so many rich people when you go to the South, the rich people come and live in Mitte with their Mercedes. There are so many galleries here, so maybe it’s nice to be here as an artist producing, but to sell maybe it’s better to have someone sell for you. The Internet thing is about globally connecting the artists to their buyers. In the end everything comes together.
> What kind of people are buying?
I think most people are between thirty and forty, I think they’re interested in aesthetics, and are designers or whatever, the connections are on their own, they want to have something more, a good connection between aesthetics and the art world. Sometimes it’s really hard to get into it and sometimes the concept behind it is not too crazy. They are in a similar position, they are interested in art, interesting people want to be a part of it and they are still really hungry.
> It’s really cool that you are making this bridge happen so effectively.
We are not in a rush. We don't want to make something quick and be successful in a few years, it’s really important for us to work together and sell our stuff to nice people and get nice feedback from across the world, and I think it’s more about this and not just about business. I think this is really important for us.