tarren [movement artist].
[profile here]
I always wait for art to become a topic in politics because it is so important and it’s something that rejuvenates populations, and it’s something that the United States desperately needs
a conversation.
[July 17, 2016]
> How did you come to work with Donna Huanca?
Someone that I used to dance with and was best friends with was one of her performers for [the ABC] show, and Donna just kind of, we had a really soft introduction, I didn’t get a strong connection or vibe of her, but I was obviously happy to meet her, I saw the show at the ABC and then when we were at the party, she actually approached me to collaborate with her and she was like, actually I would really like you to just jump into this show that's happening now. So it was, I think it was the next day or two, I just joined the performance. So it was always very spontaneous with her. She always really trusted me and it was always something that I really felt – so many artists are so controlling and protective over their space and Donna has always been very trusting and gracious with me, and it’s something that has continued into this next level of collaboration.
She’s Bolivian-American, but she’s from Texas and she went to Stale, I don't know if she was a guest student, she was there for a while, I know she lived in Berlin for a while and then has been in New York for a long time, and then just for the summer she’s working in Berlin.
> Has this kind of trusting relationship been a frequent experience with other artists?
It’s funny that you say that because I just had an audition today, where I was actually in the position of auditioning people for an artist Michael Mueller, who’s a German artist, and very accomplished, I also don’t know him super well but he put me in a position of casting his piece so I would say that there is a, like a little bit of, I mean I was a performer for him and then I jumped into being all of sudden the choreographer, artistic director, collaborator. I mean, I can’t really say exactly why that happened, similar to Donna, I just think it’s really energetic, and I really think there is an energetic connection that I have to both of these artists and I think they’re just really instinctual, and they trust what they’re feeling, they trust their gravity, they feel a connection towards someone and they just trust them and they trust their intuition enough to move forward.
> Do you feel you’ve been experiencing these energetic connections more in Berlin?
I would say more often in Berlin for sure.
> Can you elaborate on that? Because I would say I feel that way, of course it depends on what walk of life you are in, having a family here must be a bit different, but as an artist here, or working in the arts, it feels “energetic,” I think that’s a good way to put it, very instinctual and spontaneous, and trusting.
What I feel like bringing up just almost immediately is the whole Orlando thing I felt like somehow, of course there’s so much violence all over the world, but I felt like when the Orlando event happened, it was in direct dialogue with Berlin, and it made me feel we’re representative of something as a community and there are certain events. I went to an event this weekend and I don't go out as often as far as clubbing and stuff, but I went to an event and it felt so community-oriented and there were so many cultural producers that were there that I was familiar with, people that I’ve worked with, people that I just know of. And I became aware of principles, because it seems in some sense Berlin is so disparate, there are all of these different art communities, and all of these different demographics, but there is I think more and more a cohesion happening, specifically amongst people who have made it a priority to be in Berlin, this international identity, there is a certain amount of solidarity that I feel like is forming more and more, and is creating stronger alliances.
> Why is Berlin such a special city that is seeing such an influx of creative people right now, and what is it that they are bringing that is in turn affecting the city? E. B. White mentions that a city’s energy is dictated greatly by the stories and stakes of those who migrate to the city, as opposed to the born-and-raised or the commuters.
I think for one, Berlin’s accessibility. It’s not that hard to live here. It’s not that hard to get a Visa here, specifically if you’re coming from the United States. That in it of itself has brought up a lot of problems and awareness to my privilege as an American to be able to live here so easily. The accessibility, still it’s very inexpensive as an international city, and I think there is a certain collective imagination that is becoming a lot more tuned in. I would say this is in the last three or four months I’m really even more excited about living here, because it’s not just, I think a lot of people have this fugitive mentality, like they feel they’ve escaped their country, or they feel like, at least in the United States, it's the economic, political outlook of the United States is pretty grim, like I have a lot of people from the United States looking for advice about how to move to Europe, I mean it’s kind of, now I’m getting bombarded with these questions, and that wasn't the same way a few years ago. So to jump a little bit, I would say I’m more excited about the creative collective imagination of Berlin as of maybe four or five months and there are particular people in this city that have made me more excited about it. And then there are also artists that are bigger names like Donna, I mean she’s primarily based in New York, and just the fact that she’s coming to Berlin was an added bonus for me. She’s been a part of my story here, but there are people from Berlin that are actually creating a textile or creating a fabric, of a collective imagination of a conversation of work that I’m excited to be a part of, and that I actually feel like I can find a place in.
> It seems your experience has been more synthesizing and creating more connections, creation versus, I’ve come across the word “disruption” a lot, like how certain new platforms are “disrupting” the way we look at and buy and experience art, and I was wondering how you’ve experienced that.
It’s funny that certain words are so trendy, and “disruption” for me was very much two years ago. It feels a bit out of date. I think that the world is very disturbed. And I think these kinds of abrupt violent incisions or fractures of experience, it’s not to value one over the other, it’s just that the kinds of dynamics that I feel I’m more interested in are actually connecting things and finding, not necessarily even finding parallels but like, accepting our togetherness. I also think that there’s a bit of a gender element of these things as well. I mean, I don't like to talk about gender too much – but I do think that there’s something gendered about it. I think Naomi Klein’s speech at the Peace Summit, I watched it and she was talking about the Nurses’ Union being the first union to back Bernie sanders and she was specifically talking about the role of caregiving, and for me that was really essential for me towards where the world was going, or if it’s not going where it needs to go. She emphasized the need for caregiving and this new relationship, and so when I think about disruption I don't really think about, I think of it in opposition in some way to a kind of nurturing that I feel for me I’m connecting more to. I don't think of my art practice as something that is divisive or severing, I think of it as something that is more connective, and sort of sensitive and supple.
> How did you come to work with Donna Huanca?
Someone that I used to dance with and was best friends with was one of her performers for [the ABC] show, and Donna just kind of, we had a really soft introduction, I didn’t get a strong connection or vibe of her, but I was obviously happy to meet her, I saw the show at the ABC and then when we were at the party, she actually approached me to collaborate with her and she was like, actually I would really like you to just jump into this show that's happening now. So it was, I think it was the next day or two, I just joined the performance. So it was always very spontaneous with her. She always really trusted me and it was always something that I really felt – so many artists are so controlling and protective over their space and Donna has always been very trusting and gracious with me, and it’s something that has continued into this next level of collaboration.
She’s Bolivian-American, but she’s from Texas and she went to Stale, I don't know if she was a guest student, she was there for a while, I know she lived in Berlin for a while and then has been in New York for a long time, and then just for the summer she’s working in Berlin.
> Has this kind of trusting relationship been a frequent experience with other artists?
It’s funny that you say that because I just had an audition today, where I was actually in the position of auditioning people for an artist Michael Mueller, who’s a German artist, and very accomplished, I also don’t know him super well but he put me in a position of casting his piece so I would say that there is a, like a little bit of, I mean I was a performer for him and then I jumped into being all of sudden the choreographer, artistic director, collaborator. I mean, I can’t really say exactly why that happened, similar to Donna, I just think it’s really energetic, and I really think there is an energetic connection that I have to both of these artists and I think they’re just really instinctual, and they trust what they’re feeling, they trust their gravity, they feel a connection towards someone and they just trust them and they trust their intuition enough to move forward.
> Do you feel you’ve been experiencing these energetic connections more in Berlin?
I would say more often in Berlin for sure.
> Can you elaborate on that? Because I would say I feel that way, of course it depends on what walk of life you are in, having a family here must be a bit different, but as an artist here, or working in the arts, it feels “energetic,” I think that’s a good way to put it, very instinctual and spontaneous, and trusting.
What I feel like bringing up just almost immediately is the whole Orlando thing I felt like somehow, of course there’s so much violence all over the world, but I felt like when the Orlando event happened, it was in direct dialogue with Berlin, and it made me feel we’re representative of something as a community and there are certain events. I went to an event this weekend and I don't go out as often as far as clubbing and stuff, but I went to an event and it felt so community-oriented and there were so many cultural producers that were there that I was familiar with, people that I’ve worked with, people that I just know of. And I became aware of principles, because it seems in some sense Berlin is so disparate, there are all of these different art communities, and all of these different demographics, but there is I think more and more a cohesion happening, specifically amongst people who have made it a priority to be in Berlin, this international identity, there is a certain amount of solidarity that I feel like is forming more and more, and is creating stronger alliances.
> Why is Berlin such a special city that is seeing such an influx of creative people right now, and what is it that they are bringing that is in turn affecting the city? E. B. White mentions that a city’s energy is dictated greatly by the stories and stakes of those who migrate to the city, as opposed to the born-and-raised or the commuters.
I think for one, Berlin’s accessibility. It’s not that hard to live here. It’s not that hard to get a Visa here, specifically if you’re coming from the United States. That in it of itself has brought up a lot of problems and awareness to my privilege as an American to be able to live here so easily. The accessibility, still it’s very inexpensive as an international city, and I think there is a certain collective imagination that is becoming a lot more tuned in. I would say this is in the last three or four months I’m really even more excited about living here, because it’s not just, I think a lot of people have this fugitive mentality, like they feel they’ve escaped their country, or they feel like, at least in the United States, it's the economic, political outlook of the United States is pretty grim, like I have a lot of people from the United States looking for advice about how to move to Europe, I mean it’s kind of, now I’m getting bombarded with these questions, and that wasn't the same way a few years ago. So to jump a little bit, I would say I’m more excited about the creative collective imagination of Berlin as of maybe four or five months and there are particular people in this city that have made me more excited about it. And then there are also artists that are bigger names like Donna, I mean she’s primarily based in New York, and just the fact that she’s coming to Berlin was an added bonus for me. She’s been a part of my story here, but there are people from Berlin that are actually creating a textile or creating a fabric, of a collective imagination of a conversation of work that I’m excited to be a part of, and that I actually feel like I can find a place in.
> It seems your experience has been more synthesizing and creating more connections, creation versus, I’ve come across the word “disruption” a lot, like how certain new platforms are “disrupting” the way we look at and buy and experience art, and I was wondering how you’ve experienced that.
It’s funny that certain words are so trendy, and “disruption” for me was very much two years ago. It feels a bit out of date. I think that the world is very disturbed. And I think these kinds of abrupt violent incisions or fractures of experience, it’s not to value one over the other, it’s just that the kinds of dynamics that I feel I’m more interested in are actually connecting things and finding, not necessarily even finding parallels but like, accepting our togetherness. I also think that there’s a bit of a gender element of these things as well. I mean, I don't like to talk about gender too much – but I do think that there’s something gendered about it. I think Naomi Klein’s speech at the Peace Summit, I watched it and she was talking about the Nurses’ Union being the first union to back Bernie sanders and she was specifically talking about the role of caregiving, and for me that was really essential for me towards where the world was going, or if it’s not going where it needs to go. She emphasized the need for caregiving and this new relationship, and so when I think about disruption I don't really think about, I think of it in opposition in some way to a kind of nurturing that I feel for me I’m connecting more to. I don't think of my art practice as something that is divisive or severing, I think of it as something that is more connective, and sort of sensitive and supple.
> Let’s backtrack a bit…
I moved to Berlin three years ago, and my stay is definitely indefinite. I moved to Berlin with the intention of never returning to the States. I was very fearful of going back to the States, I didn't go back for two and a half years. And I just went back this winter because I felt that I had finally felt confident enough with what I had built here, that I had something to come back to.
> Was your intention of not returning personal?
No, it was political. It was right, I think I had moved here, the Occupy movement had already happened, and I was just graduating college and I had the intentions of starting an arts career and I just didn’t see the likelihood of me doing anything that I actually wanted to do in the States, especially in Los Angeles. It’s really ironic in some ways because a lot of people idealize LA as an arts capital, but my experiences in LA were that, it’s just a different world. There’s not a lot of back and forth, and the people that do find a way of easily moving back and forth between LA and Berlin have really great connections and have a little bit more freedom with how they’re living. That's a goal of mine because I don't think that LA is off the map when it comes to art at all, in fact in five years or so I can imagine myself living there, but I also think that as far is dance is concerned in particular, it has a long way to go.
> Working to live in Europe, versus living to work in States, redefines freedom – not just to go back and forth between LA and Berlin, but the definition of freedom in Berlin as being able to live freely without stressing over your financial state, whereas it’s much harder to have that kind of freedom or peace of mind in LA or New York.
I think definitely LA and New York, sometimes people who think about the States are only thinking of those two places, but for instance when I went to New Orleans, I think there is something totally fascinating about that city and that’s why I was drawn to it, and it hasn’t been in a similar, I mean they call it the Big Easy because it is somehow a bit relaxed, and a little bit slower, it's the South. But I still, this work element of living to work versus working to live thing, I was really, I don't want to say “condemned,” that's too hard of a word, but I was definitely pointed out for being a bit too ambitious when I got here. Because I had just come from college and I was going to a very competitive dance school and I was ready to get work, I mean, I was very determined, and I felt like I was talented, and I was ready to pursue my goals as intensely as I possibly could. And that actually was a little bit of a detriment to my initial success because people really saw that as an American mentality that is not necessarily desirable, you don't have that kind of European nonchalance...
> How did you respond to that? There is no better or worse value, but just as Europeans find it hard to accept that value of working hard for the sake of working hard, for me it seems I am still hesitant to…
I feel like it’s somehow double-sided, I feel like European – I’m going to speak broadly because for instance I don't know about every European country’s education system, but I just want to say in general – at least in berlin, the general education level, like what you can expect someone to know when you go into a conversation with them is much higher than it is in the United States. So the education level and the work ethic don't exactly match up and I think that that’s something that gets a bit complicated because there are people who work all the time, that doesn’t mean that they’re well-educated, or that they even know why they’re working or what they’re for, and that's something that I definitely have at odds with the United States. So when I came here, I would say my progression has been, I don't think that I’ve become lazy but I think that I’ve learned how to focus my energy into and be comfortable focusing on my own work and focusing on things that really matter to me as opposed to just feeling like I’m working hard. I think there’s also this idea, when you’re an expat there’s also this kind of pirate feeling, you know, you’re not working for your country, your sense of nationalism has become a bit severed, you start thinking about your identity more individually as opposed to connected to a particular nationality, which I think puts in this entire idea of the JFK quote, don't ask what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country. Which, to answer the question, the main question with being an expat, sometimes I see all of the things that are happening in the united states I feel that I should be involved but I feel like also it isn’t necessarily something that I want to – I mean I participate in it in my own way, but I feel like, I’ve picked my own creative life over necessarily like as an American activist working on behalf of the United States.
> New Yorkers already feel like expats, by definition, they are usually working for their own country where they came from, or if anything, I feel a very minimal nationalistic intention, its more individual in New York.
My focus towards American politics probably tripled after I moved out of the country, and when I went back I probably knew more about what was happening in the United States and the thing that actually mattered in my opinion, for instance the Front Water crisis, I mean I met people in New Orleans that were from Detroit and didn't know about this, and for me, I mean I don't want to put judgment on other people but at the same time its like, there are a lot of Europeans that know more about what’s happening in the United States than Americans, and I don't think its an accident, I think tis a part of all of the problems that are being exposed about media in the united states, but I would say that somehow, ive always felt the possibility of being a leader, someone who is politically outspoken on behalf of the issues of African Americans in the united states, I mean there are several issues that re coming up, basically the race riots, I mean these are the things that I always felt would potentially bring me back to the States. But at the same time, I feel like I understand what’s at stake. I don't see a career at this point in my life, moving forward in the United States. Something that I was kind of testing out by going back to new Orleans, which I felt was, it’s always been such an African American strength in culture for the united states, its something that I could imagine being an arts center. Its really not there yet. Specifically because of hurricane Katrina, its not like, it doesn’t have the infrastructure that some places like Berlin has, and so that was a testing moment, and I feel happy to be back in Berlin, and I think that there’s a lot of good to be done in all fronts from Berlin, and I really think that it’s a place where, I really think I’m not alone in this, I think there’s a lot of people from the hacking community, and from just people that believe in freedom, and not just in an abstract sense but freedom from surveillance that are really opposed to the American agenda of the world, and I really feel like a part of this.
> I would also like to ask you about not only what makes Berlin special, but I feel that art is in New York very, very limited to a certain demographic, the older rich white group that has the temporal and financial surplus to visit a museum or a performance, no matter how brilliant or innovative or creative that actual culture is, it seems to not be reaching the groups that I think it should be. Probably LA art is less distinctly elitist?
I would say specifically the college that I went to, CalArts, has a lot of summer programs that are free and far-reaching that give really good arts training, I worked for one, CAPSA, and they have free museum days, but I would say at large, it’s just the same. I would say that's something that's true of art in the United States in general.
> And that it's the opposite here, especially in Berlin, probably in cities like Paris or London it’s also a highbrow action, but I would say it feels like art in Berlin is so much more casual and integrated into everyone’s daily life on this liberating level, and I was wondering how it’s able to do that and why we can’t do that in the States.
I think it’s just about priorities. I mean, there’s no funding for art in the States. That's why Berlin is what it is. It's a safe haven for working artists. I would say the main problem is just the priorities. For instance, with the New Deal, when Roosevelt created all these jobs to reboot the economy, art was really taken seriously and people were employed to go and take pictures of the United States. I always wait for art to become a topic in politics because it is so important and it’s something that rejuvenates populations, and it’s something that the United States desperately needs, it’s really in dire states. For instance in the musical Annie, “let the sun come out tomorrow,” that’s a direct reference to the Depression, it’s not that the United States has been culturally depleted forever, it’s really in the last ten years, and culture needs to be rescued from corporate rule. And I’m not really sure how that happens. I have friends in LA who say that it has gotten much better, but I haven’t seen it first hand. That’s the reason. Berlin – Germany in general, but – Airbnb, Uber, those have all been made illegal, and it’s because Germans are very protective of workers and labor, and not to say that they do everything right because they absolutely don’t, but there are a lot of protections, like there are certain laws about how much people can charge for an apartment, and all of these things try to maintain a certain kind of ecosystem, and the United States has just completely given itself to the free market and culture was put on the chopping block a long time ago.
> Photographers who don’t identify with “art” or “kunst” surprised me at first, but then I realized that they might be seeing a different vision of “art,” and the term itself has been jettisoned whereas American art is still a baby.
I feel like “art” is not the problem. In some ways it’s like, okay, there’s this issue with semantics. But I think that art is constantly something that needs to be redefined, it's a territory – I feel like sometimes we’re playing tug-of-war with the past, with certain definitions and it’s always up to these fresh perspectives to re-territorialize art for itself, and reclaim. And I don’t think it’s the word that's the problem.
> At the same time that Berlin seems to be the epicenter for creating art, because of the lack of pressure and competition it also seems to be vulnerable to stagnancy, like a graveyard as well as a womb for creation.
I think that’s changed. I really do. There are different scenes. I think there are certain things that are happening here that are very competitive and I think that the more that the external places are looking to Berlin, the more that that increases.
> Do you feel that in the dance world?
You know, I don’t really feel like I’m working in the dance world. Which is weird because I feel like I’m working more in the art world as a dancer, choreographer, and I don't want to say that I ‘ve turned my back on the dance world because I do have a contract, for instance, with the Deutsche Opera as a dancer, for a show that's happening in October called Gianni, and it is about the assassination of Versace, and it’s kind of like this vogue-ing opera, starting October 1, 2016 and touring in 2017. But I would say in general, I would consider myself a crossover artist and much more affiliated with the art scene than the dance scene, and that has been through the gatekeepers of the dance scene here
I moved to Berlin three years ago, and my stay is definitely indefinite. I moved to Berlin with the intention of never returning to the States. I was very fearful of going back to the States, I didn't go back for two and a half years. And I just went back this winter because I felt that I had finally felt confident enough with what I had built here, that I had something to come back to.
> Was your intention of not returning personal?
No, it was political. It was right, I think I had moved here, the Occupy movement had already happened, and I was just graduating college and I had the intentions of starting an arts career and I just didn’t see the likelihood of me doing anything that I actually wanted to do in the States, especially in Los Angeles. It’s really ironic in some ways because a lot of people idealize LA as an arts capital, but my experiences in LA were that, it’s just a different world. There’s not a lot of back and forth, and the people that do find a way of easily moving back and forth between LA and Berlin have really great connections and have a little bit more freedom with how they’re living. That's a goal of mine because I don't think that LA is off the map when it comes to art at all, in fact in five years or so I can imagine myself living there, but I also think that as far is dance is concerned in particular, it has a long way to go.
> Working to live in Europe, versus living to work in States, redefines freedom – not just to go back and forth between LA and Berlin, but the definition of freedom in Berlin as being able to live freely without stressing over your financial state, whereas it’s much harder to have that kind of freedom or peace of mind in LA or New York.
I think definitely LA and New York, sometimes people who think about the States are only thinking of those two places, but for instance when I went to New Orleans, I think there is something totally fascinating about that city and that’s why I was drawn to it, and it hasn’t been in a similar, I mean they call it the Big Easy because it is somehow a bit relaxed, and a little bit slower, it's the South. But I still, this work element of living to work versus working to live thing, I was really, I don't want to say “condemned,” that's too hard of a word, but I was definitely pointed out for being a bit too ambitious when I got here. Because I had just come from college and I was going to a very competitive dance school and I was ready to get work, I mean, I was very determined, and I felt like I was talented, and I was ready to pursue my goals as intensely as I possibly could. And that actually was a little bit of a detriment to my initial success because people really saw that as an American mentality that is not necessarily desirable, you don't have that kind of European nonchalance...
> How did you respond to that? There is no better or worse value, but just as Europeans find it hard to accept that value of working hard for the sake of working hard, for me it seems I am still hesitant to…
I feel like it’s somehow double-sided, I feel like European – I’m going to speak broadly because for instance I don't know about every European country’s education system, but I just want to say in general – at least in berlin, the general education level, like what you can expect someone to know when you go into a conversation with them is much higher than it is in the United States. So the education level and the work ethic don't exactly match up and I think that that’s something that gets a bit complicated because there are people who work all the time, that doesn’t mean that they’re well-educated, or that they even know why they’re working or what they’re for, and that's something that I definitely have at odds with the United States. So when I came here, I would say my progression has been, I don't think that I’ve become lazy but I think that I’ve learned how to focus my energy into and be comfortable focusing on my own work and focusing on things that really matter to me as opposed to just feeling like I’m working hard. I think there’s also this idea, when you’re an expat there’s also this kind of pirate feeling, you know, you’re not working for your country, your sense of nationalism has become a bit severed, you start thinking about your identity more individually as opposed to connected to a particular nationality, which I think puts in this entire idea of the JFK quote, don't ask what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country. Which, to answer the question, the main question with being an expat, sometimes I see all of the things that are happening in the united states I feel that I should be involved but I feel like also it isn’t necessarily something that I want to – I mean I participate in it in my own way, but I feel like, I’ve picked my own creative life over necessarily like as an American activist working on behalf of the United States.
> New Yorkers already feel like expats, by definition, they are usually working for their own country where they came from, or if anything, I feel a very minimal nationalistic intention, its more individual in New York.
My focus towards American politics probably tripled after I moved out of the country, and when I went back I probably knew more about what was happening in the United States and the thing that actually mattered in my opinion, for instance the Front Water crisis, I mean I met people in New Orleans that were from Detroit and didn't know about this, and for me, I mean I don't want to put judgment on other people but at the same time its like, there are a lot of Europeans that know more about what’s happening in the United States than Americans, and I don't think its an accident, I think tis a part of all of the problems that are being exposed about media in the united states, but I would say that somehow, ive always felt the possibility of being a leader, someone who is politically outspoken on behalf of the issues of African Americans in the united states, I mean there are several issues that re coming up, basically the race riots, I mean these are the things that I always felt would potentially bring me back to the States. But at the same time, I feel like I understand what’s at stake. I don't see a career at this point in my life, moving forward in the United States. Something that I was kind of testing out by going back to new Orleans, which I felt was, it’s always been such an African American strength in culture for the united states, its something that I could imagine being an arts center. Its really not there yet. Specifically because of hurricane Katrina, its not like, it doesn’t have the infrastructure that some places like Berlin has, and so that was a testing moment, and I feel happy to be back in Berlin, and I think that there’s a lot of good to be done in all fronts from Berlin, and I really think that it’s a place where, I really think I’m not alone in this, I think there’s a lot of people from the hacking community, and from just people that believe in freedom, and not just in an abstract sense but freedom from surveillance that are really opposed to the American agenda of the world, and I really feel like a part of this.
> I would also like to ask you about not only what makes Berlin special, but I feel that art is in New York very, very limited to a certain demographic, the older rich white group that has the temporal and financial surplus to visit a museum or a performance, no matter how brilliant or innovative or creative that actual culture is, it seems to not be reaching the groups that I think it should be. Probably LA art is less distinctly elitist?
I would say specifically the college that I went to, CalArts, has a lot of summer programs that are free and far-reaching that give really good arts training, I worked for one, CAPSA, and they have free museum days, but I would say at large, it’s just the same. I would say that's something that's true of art in the United States in general.
> And that it's the opposite here, especially in Berlin, probably in cities like Paris or London it’s also a highbrow action, but I would say it feels like art in Berlin is so much more casual and integrated into everyone’s daily life on this liberating level, and I was wondering how it’s able to do that and why we can’t do that in the States.
I think it’s just about priorities. I mean, there’s no funding for art in the States. That's why Berlin is what it is. It's a safe haven for working artists. I would say the main problem is just the priorities. For instance, with the New Deal, when Roosevelt created all these jobs to reboot the economy, art was really taken seriously and people were employed to go and take pictures of the United States. I always wait for art to become a topic in politics because it is so important and it’s something that rejuvenates populations, and it’s something that the United States desperately needs, it’s really in dire states. For instance in the musical Annie, “let the sun come out tomorrow,” that’s a direct reference to the Depression, it’s not that the United States has been culturally depleted forever, it’s really in the last ten years, and culture needs to be rescued from corporate rule. And I’m not really sure how that happens. I have friends in LA who say that it has gotten much better, but I haven’t seen it first hand. That’s the reason. Berlin – Germany in general, but – Airbnb, Uber, those have all been made illegal, and it’s because Germans are very protective of workers and labor, and not to say that they do everything right because they absolutely don’t, but there are a lot of protections, like there are certain laws about how much people can charge for an apartment, and all of these things try to maintain a certain kind of ecosystem, and the United States has just completely given itself to the free market and culture was put on the chopping block a long time ago.
> Photographers who don’t identify with “art” or “kunst” surprised me at first, but then I realized that they might be seeing a different vision of “art,” and the term itself has been jettisoned whereas American art is still a baby.
I feel like “art” is not the problem. In some ways it’s like, okay, there’s this issue with semantics. But I think that art is constantly something that needs to be redefined, it's a territory – I feel like sometimes we’re playing tug-of-war with the past, with certain definitions and it’s always up to these fresh perspectives to re-territorialize art for itself, and reclaim. And I don’t think it’s the word that's the problem.
> At the same time that Berlin seems to be the epicenter for creating art, because of the lack of pressure and competition it also seems to be vulnerable to stagnancy, like a graveyard as well as a womb for creation.
I think that’s changed. I really do. There are different scenes. I think there are certain things that are happening here that are very competitive and I think that the more that the external places are looking to Berlin, the more that that increases.
> Do you feel that in the dance world?
You know, I don’t really feel like I’m working in the dance world. Which is weird because I feel like I’m working more in the art world as a dancer, choreographer, and I don't want to say that I ‘ve turned my back on the dance world because I do have a contract, for instance, with the Deutsche Opera as a dancer, for a show that's happening in October called Gianni, and it is about the assassination of Versace, and it’s kind of like this vogue-ing opera, starting October 1, 2016 and touring in 2017. But I would say in general, I would consider myself a crossover artist and much more affiliated with the art scene than the dance scene, and that has been through the gatekeepers of the dance scene here
> What is the dance scene here?
[Laughs] I would say Meg Stewart is somehow a guru of Berlin, I would say peter plier, and then up-and-coming predecessors are Julian Fayba who I worked with as sound designer and a performer, and I feel like I got a glimpse of what’s happening and what’s there, and I just feel like it’s not so sharp, it’s not on target with the things that I’m aesthetically interested in, and that's why I feel lucky to be here in a time when there are so many visual artists who are incorporating dance and performance into their work, like Donna. For me, Donna’s work is just awesome, and I love it. I love performing it, I think she’s fascinating and that’s what I would rather be doing.
> Donna’s work at the Peres Project and at Manifesta, will be with the paintings?
In general, Donna does sculpture, she does painting, and then she also does sound and performance. I’ve never worked with her on sound before so that will be something new in Manifesta 11 for me. I don't want to say that I’m scared because I’m not scared but I’m a little intimidated, not even intimidated, I’m intrigued to be part of the more material elements. Obviously being her material is one thing, but then also adding so much of my own story and my own voice, literally I’ll be singing and dancing and creating the soundscape and wearing her garments, it's a lot more of my authorship, and I’m also being credited. Normally when we’re performing her work we’re anonymous as models, and this is the first time I’m being credited as a collaborator. For me it's a total shift in energy and I really am excited about it. It’s going to be very much her environment. I went to her studio and looked at a few things but not sure what’s set.
> The meaning behind the texture or the colors or the literal surface she works with?
That's a question for her but I’ll just say from my own experiences I had a dream but it was also something that I wanted to work with myself of having a lavender neck for a performance, and when out of nowhere I was asked to work for Donna at this Frieze magazine party, the color she chose for me was this lavender and she painted my neck. So we’ve always had this bizarre – and I think she’s really really good at reading people’s desires and their energies and picking colors, and for me its always a very – the colors are very important and I get something out of seeing her color choices, almost like tarot cards, it’s very esoteric for me, and because I’ve had to speak about her work before, I would say the actual part of getting ready for the performance is just as performative and just as rich for me.
> It seems like seeing the piece at Peres Project, you can’t ignore the question of imagining the process of the becoming of the work. We don't see it but we have to experience it mentally. How does that work?
For me it’s very sisterly. I’m an only child, so I never really had – it’s also funny because my mother’s a hair dresser, so yes, I’m an only child, but I was also raised in hair salons, so this idea of female grooming, specifically self-identifying women, just working on each other and being comfortable with each other’s body, because it’s not necessarily comfortable to have someone painting your vagina, which happens, because it’s like this girl asked me to pose for her at ABC and now she has a paintbrush in between my legs, so it’s like okay… [laughs], but I think that the preparation is very important. That's why I say that the time we spent together is very dense, I feel like I know Donna very well, now even more because she’s actually in Berlin so we have more time to hang out outside of a work context, but even within the work context, the preparation, she brings you also this armor in some way, you really get completely transformed, and it’s an energy-reading like I said, it’s a manifestation, it’s an abstraction of your conversation, it’s what she’s picking up from you, and it’s not in any kind of judgmental way, it’s in a healing, sisterly way and that’s one thing I’ve always been attracted to. I’ve never felt judged or insecure about myself in that environment, and I think it would be really easy to. Coming from a dance background, and having to be around other performers naked, there’s always the possibility of feeling a bit uncomfortable, and Donna’s always facilitated a very caring, elevated experience of being comfortable with your body. Because she gets asked quite a bit about exploitation and about why do you have the right to share other’s bodies, and this kind of questioning, and the actual process has always very sensitive and very transformative.
> That kind of response seems to come from a refusal to want to understand how it works. It seems, especially with this relationship with Donna, but do you think it is a Berliner culture to truly not judge? Because, as opposed to seemingly nonjudgmental but actually suffocating and norm-intensive Tokyo and the workaholic value in New York, Berlin seems founded on unconditionally trusting and nonjudgmental and “energetic” relations.
I think that there’s real economic conditions here that change the ways that people live. Like when you only have to work three days a week your entire life changes than when you’re working six or seven days a week, or maybe you’re five days week but on call and not, actually, like spending a lot of your free time worried about your work. And I just think that, moving to Berlin for me, it wasn't easy, that’s the other thing, there’s not a lot of job opportunities here right away, it takes a long time to figure out what you’re actually doing and you have to put the time in and you have to find your way out the tunnel unless you’re well connected, which I wasn't. I’d never been here before I moved here, I moved here with an ex-boyfriend and we were broken up after four months and I was on my own. And trying to be a dancer, I actually have to say, I think this is probably, for me, the best city in the world to try to be a dancer, because you can do something different and try to figure it out until you make enough connections and if you’re talented enough you can figure it out, and you just kind of have to stay strong and stay committed to what you do, and you find your way out of it. But it wasn't easy, and I think that, similarly I’ve never lived in New York City, I’ve only been there two times and I can’t really compare them so much but I know a lot of people from New York that live here now, and a lot of them compare Berlin now to New York in the seventies because it wasn't as hard to live there then and then they compare to the eighties when it really was an arts hub, and people say that if you can make it to the top in new york or just make it in general then you can make it anywhere in the world, and I mean I don't doubt that, I haven’t had that experience but I also feel that for young artists, I think that, especially coming from an American upbringing, you actually need time to figure out what you actually want to do. Because you don't find that in school, you probably didn't find that before you went to college if you even went to college, you just need some student time, and most people cannot afford that.
> At the same time that Berlin offers the time to develop your style and focus on you, it’s never really an end point, Berlin as “becoming” and the people also feel that they’re always “becoming” never at their end point but always transitioning
People at they’re best are. You find so many different kinds of people here, people gravitate towards other people that they feel connected to and so there’s pockets of people that I do personally believe are on the cusp of culture in the city, and I really do believe that they’re pressing things harder than others cities because I think it allows more freedom and self-reflection, because of the economic situation here.
> And there’s also a demand for it, too.
And also the expectation. Berlin was branded whatever, Europe’s most creative city several years ago, I don't think that's necessarily true, I just think that's a branding slogan that it has, but I would say just from my limited knowledge of the world as well, I mean I haven’t been everywhere, I don't know what people are doing from all corners of the world, but from my perspective, I would say that there’s a certain pocket of artists that live in the city that I think are really pushing the conversation in art in a very, very new interesting direction that I am completely on board with, and I’m just excited about it. I feel like it's a great time to live here and I feel I’m also a part of this, I don't think that I’m necessarily at the pinnacle of what’s happening but I feel like I’ve been exposed to it and I’m just kind of taking it in everyday and working on the things that I’m working on. I would say Donna is also one of these people, she’s not based in Berlin but she clearly has an affinity for Berlin and is represented here.
> I’m sure this answer cannot be said in a few words, but what is that boundary?
I fear sounding too much like a crazy hippie, but maybe I am [laughs]. No, but I think for instance the Naomi Klein speech that I referenced earlier, I think there is a paradigm shift where humans are understanding that they need to change their relationship to capitalism and to being consumers and to their environment and to each other and to exploiting each other people’s labor. I mean there’s an entire, philosophical undoing that's happening and I think this idea of caregiving is really fundamental, there are certain things that I find in it, like I find water, very related to this kind of caregiving, we’re also living in a time when oceans are depleting, and I mean there are serious stakes that we’re living with, and I think there’s kinds of consciousness on this planet that are human and that are animal and that are plant and are all understanding and connected to this kind of larger consciousness. There are real stakes – climate change is real, and fascism is real, and we have to somehow undo and challenge and we can’t just continue as we have, and I think that those forces are, I also am someone that really feels that the body – and this is also something that is really prevalent in my practices – we are vessels and we are working on behalf of ideas and we believe in principles and fictions and ideologies, all those things come together and we are animating these and we are materializing them, and there are some forces on this planet that are understanding the dire states that we are in, and then there are some forces that are opposing that. I’m talking about a paradigm shift, and the potential for art to be something that causes a consciousness shift. It doesn’t necessarily take the disguise as political, either, and I think that’s something that’s a little bit complicated, is that its not necessarily political speech that is going to cause a consciousness shift on this planet. I think it could be something that is much more aesthetic, much more textural, much more not obvious.
So yeah. I think personally as well – I’ll say one more thing because I’m like, yapping – I’m really interested in this resurgence of romanticism and this resurgence of plays and really getting back into this hand-crafted, really precious work that is totally a part of what’s happening with some artists here, and I definitely see myself bringing a more concert-dance element due to this line of work.
> What does that look like?
My training – I’m coming from more a conservatory as a background, I’ve been dancing since I was seven, I’ve had a very classical training compared to most dancers, and in some ways it could be seen as outdated, but I also went to a avant-garde dance school, so the whole time I was getting a classic dance background I was also studying art and studying critical theory and contextualizing my training, and living in Berlin, which, at the time that I came here had basically no regard for classical training, whether that be ballet or modern, I really had to defend the fact that I had spent most of my life learning these things and that I actually cared about them enough to continue doing it for seventeen years, and I got to a point where I found after so much, I mean that s kind of what I have to say, is that I didn't really find my voice in the performing arts community here, worked for other people, I did sound design for very well known choreographers, I then ended up performing for them, but then I found my authorship in my voice more in the art realm, but as someone that's bringing concert dance back. With all of the knowledge of what’s happening in contemporary dance and art, but also not letting go of what I fell in love with about the art of choreography, which for me, improvisation is not the end of be all, and there are people who would argue with me, that to choreography something is to kill dance, and I’m definitely more on this side of almost being a composer, I still think that this relationship of composer and dancer exists in the dance world, and I still hold onto that.
But you had said something about performance art, something about, you had a piece in mind that you wanted to talk about.
> Did I? Sorry, I don't remember, sorry my brain is…
It’s okay.
> I think that it’s really interesting, that there is, in you, this strong push against the “dance world” and towards the “art world” – because we can’t use those boundaries without defining them anymore – and I wonder how you can be so grounded and at the same time pushing those boundaries, it seems almost like you are grounded in a trans-boundary action, which I aspire to.
It’s interesting that you put it in those terms – there are two things actually that come to mind. I feel like it also has to do with being mixed race, with living in such a stratified context of growing up in suburban Californian in a very white surrounding but being African American but also being very light-skinned, I definitely have experienced this literary themed character the Tragic Mulatto, I don't know if you’ve come across this, but it’s like a Mulatto that neither belongs to the black nor the white, and in a lot of literature ends of committing suicide because it doesn't belong to either society, and…
> That's terrible…
I know, it’s tragic, but it’s actually kind of interesting because even in contemporary, like for instance – I don't know if this is getting of topic or not, you can stop me if I am – but for instance like Assata Shakur, the famous black panther that escaped jail and is living in Cuba, but the United States is desperately trying to bring back, I really lived up to her as a hero and I read her memoir, autobiography, and she talks about mixed race people as just a symbol of the rape that happened during slavery, and that's actually still even recently, I’ve seen things come up in the Black Live Matter movement of people claiming why is black skin so stigmatized to the detriment of white skinned black people, it’s really kind of a weird thing, because obviously there’s a way of bringing, legitimatizing and bringing a loving equalization to all skin colors without putting down certain people, and having Obama as the first mixed race black president, who actually never talked about Mulatto heritage, he was always the “black” president, that was really a kind of strange moment for a lot of mixed race people that identified with him. So anyway, as far as being grounded in this kind of lack of – It really comes from this kind of identity politic that I occupy, and then the second thing is just life drawing modeling. I’m also doing life drawing modeling, and I feel like that is such an art form that has been hardly mentioned. I do it wherever I go because it's a good job, but it’s actually been a good way for me to continue making money, but also it helps me actually as a dancer.
> I have a friend who has done it here, but I feel like it is something that would be very transformative and interesting.
I’m looking for literature about, accounts of life drawing models because its such a – I feel like always the voiceless model, you always get – the credit always goes to the artist, and the voice always goes to the artist, but really it's a relationship that's built between these figures and I’ve just been so interested in figurative work and I obviously identify because I’m photographed quite often and I’m drawn quite often. I’m really interested in giving agency to the figure of art. Giving agency to the body as a performer in the artist’s work.
> This probably started post-war or half a century ago, historically in art, the model was just the vessel to show off the artists’ skill, and more and more the figure has gained agency, in things like budoh performance,
Totally, even the aesthetic of budoh but the practices, because its such a vast practice, but I think the philosophies are very, an undercurrent of Donna’s work, and in terms of the figure gaining more agency is also a progression of our work relationship. All of a sudden I’m creating music and I am dancing and I am bringing my own dance and practice within visibility of this world that she’s created, that we are creating together, so its definitely something that I know that we share an interest in, and then just the process of how I collaborate, I’m always really looking at the people, I pick people that I want to bring things out of and that I want to create relationships with and I want to bring it to life on the stage. It’s never about a preconceived idea that I’m just launching on people.
[Laughs] I would say Meg Stewart is somehow a guru of Berlin, I would say peter plier, and then up-and-coming predecessors are Julian Fayba who I worked with as sound designer and a performer, and I feel like I got a glimpse of what’s happening and what’s there, and I just feel like it’s not so sharp, it’s not on target with the things that I’m aesthetically interested in, and that's why I feel lucky to be here in a time when there are so many visual artists who are incorporating dance and performance into their work, like Donna. For me, Donna’s work is just awesome, and I love it. I love performing it, I think she’s fascinating and that’s what I would rather be doing.
> Donna’s work at the Peres Project and at Manifesta, will be with the paintings?
In general, Donna does sculpture, she does painting, and then she also does sound and performance. I’ve never worked with her on sound before so that will be something new in Manifesta 11 for me. I don't want to say that I’m scared because I’m not scared but I’m a little intimidated, not even intimidated, I’m intrigued to be part of the more material elements. Obviously being her material is one thing, but then also adding so much of my own story and my own voice, literally I’ll be singing and dancing and creating the soundscape and wearing her garments, it's a lot more of my authorship, and I’m also being credited. Normally when we’re performing her work we’re anonymous as models, and this is the first time I’m being credited as a collaborator. For me it's a total shift in energy and I really am excited about it. It’s going to be very much her environment. I went to her studio and looked at a few things but not sure what’s set.
> The meaning behind the texture or the colors or the literal surface she works with?
That's a question for her but I’ll just say from my own experiences I had a dream but it was also something that I wanted to work with myself of having a lavender neck for a performance, and when out of nowhere I was asked to work for Donna at this Frieze magazine party, the color she chose for me was this lavender and she painted my neck. So we’ve always had this bizarre – and I think she’s really really good at reading people’s desires and their energies and picking colors, and for me its always a very – the colors are very important and I get something out of seeing her color choices, almost like tarot cards, it’s very esoteric for me, and because I’ve had to speak about her work before, I would say the actual part of getting ready for the performance is just as performative and just as rich for me.
> It seems like seeing the piece at Peres Project, you can’t ignore the question of imagining the process of the becoming of the work. We don't see it but we have to experience it mentally. How does that work?
For me it’s very sisterly. I’m an only child, so I never really had – it’s also funny because my mother’s a hair dresser, so yes, I’m an only child, but I was also raised in hair salons, so this idea of female grooming, specifically self-identifying women, just working on each other and being comfortable with each other’s body, because it’s not necessarily comfortable to have someone painting your vagina, which happens, because it’s like this girl asked me to pose for her at ABC and now she has a paintbrush in between my legs, so it’s like okay… [laughs], but I think that the preparation is very important. That's why I say that the time we spent together is very dense, I feel like I know Donna very well, now even more because she’s actually in Berlin so we have more time to hang out outside of a work context, but even within the work context, the preparation, she brings you also this armor in some way, you really get completely transformed, and it’s an energy-reading like I said, it’s a manifestation, it’s an abstraction of your conversation, it’s what she’s picking up from you, and it’s not in any kind of judgmental way, it’s in a healing, sisterly way and that’s one thing I’ve always been attracted to. I’ve never felt judged or insecure about myself in that environment, and I think it would be really easy to. Coming from a dance background, and having to be around other performers naked, there’s always the possibility of feeling a bit uncomfortable, and Donna’s always facilitated a very caring, elevated experience of being comfortable with your body. Because she gets asked quite a bit about exploitation and about why do you have the right to share other’s bodies, and this kind of questioning, and the actual process has always very sensitive and very transformative.
> That kind of response seems to come from a refusal to want to understand how it works. It seems, especially with this relationship with Donna, but do you think it is a Berliner culture to truly not judge? Because, as opposed to seemingly nonjudgmental but actually suffocating and norm-intensive Tokyo and the workaholic value in New York, Berlin seems founded on unconditionally trusting and nonjudgmental and “energetic” relations.
I think that there’s real economic conditions here that change the ways that people live. Like when you only have to work three days a week your entire life changes than when you’re working six or seven days a week, or maybe you’re five days week but on call and not, actually, like spending a lot of your free time worried about your work. And I just think that, moving to Berlin for me, it wasn't easy, that’s the other thing, there’s not a lot of job opportunities here right away, it takes a long time to figure out what you’re actually doing and you have to put the time in and you have to find your way out the tunnel unless you’re well connected, which I wasn't. I’d never been here before I moved here, I moved here with an ex-boyfriend and we were broken up after four months and I was on my own. And trying to be a dancer, I actually have to say, I think this is probably, for me, the best city in the world to try to be a dancer, because you can do something different and try to figure it out until you make enough connections and if you’re talented enough you can figure it out, and you just kind of have to stay strong and stay committed to what you do, and you find your way out of it. But it wasn't easy, and I think that, similarly I’ve never lived in New York City, I’ve only been there two times and I can’t really compare them so much but I know a lot of people from New York that live here now, and a lot of them compare Berlin now to New York in the seventies because it wasn't as hard to live there then and then they compare to the eighties when it really was an arts hub, and people say that if you can make it to the top in new york or just make it in general then you can make it anywhere in the world, and I mean I don't doubt that, I haven’t had that experience but I also feel that for young artists, I think that, especially coming from an American upbringing, you actually need time to figure out what you actually want to do. Because you don't find that in school, you probably didn't find that before you went to college if you even went to college, you just need some student time, and most people cannot afford that.
> At the same time that Berlin offers the time to develop your style and focus on you, it’s never really an end point, Berlin as “becoming” and the people also feel that they’re always “becoming” never at their end point but always transitioning
People at they’re best are. You find so many different kinds of people here, people gravitate towards other people that they feel connected to and so there’s pockets of people that I do personally believe are on the cusp of culture in the city, and I really do believe that they’re pressing things harder than others cities because I think it allows more freedom and self-reflection, because of the economic situation here.
> And there’s also a demand for it, too.
And also the expectation. Berlin was branded whatever, Europe’s most creative city several years ago, I don't think that's necessarily true, I just think that's a branding slogan that it has, but I would say just from my limited knowledge of the world as well, I mean I haven’t been everywhere, I don't know what people are doing from all corners of the world, but from my perspective, I would say that there’s a certain pocket of artists that live in the city that I think are really pushing the conversation in art in a very, very new interesting direction that I am completely on board with, and I’m just excited about it. I feel like it's a great time to live here and I feel I’m also a part of this, I don't think that I’m necessarily at the pinnacle of what’s happening but I feel like I’ve been exposed to it and I’m just kind of taking it in everyday and working on the things that I’m working on. I would say Donna is also one of these people, she’s not based in Berlin but she clearly has an affinity for Berlin and is represented here.
> I’m sure this answer cannot be said in a few words, but what is that boundary?
I fear sounding too much like a crazy hippie, but maybe I am [laughs]. No, but I think for instance the Naomi Klein speech that I referenced earlier, I think there is a paradigm shift where humans are understanding that they need to change their relationship to capitalism and to being consumers and to their environment and to each other and to exploiting each other people’s labor. I mean there’s an entire, philosophical undoing that's happening and I think this idea of caregiving is really fundamental, there are certain things that I find in it, like I find water, very related to this kind of caregiving, we’re also living in a time when oceans are depleting, and I mean there are serious stakes that we’re living with, and I think there’s kinds of consciousness on this planet that are human and that are animal and that are plant and are all understanding and connected to this kind of larger consciousness. There are real stakes – climate change is real, and fascism is real, and we have to somehow undo and challenge and we can’t just continue as we have, and I think that those forces are, I also am someone that really feels that the body – and this is also something that is really prevalent in my practices – we are vessels and we are working on behalf of ideas and we believe in principles and fictions and ideologies, all those things come together and we are animating these and we are materializing them, and there are some forces on this planet that are understanding the dire states that we are in, and then there are some forces that are opposing that. I’m talking about a paradigm shift, and the potential for art to be something that causes a consciousness shift. It doesn’t necessarily take the disguise as political, either, and I think that’s something that’s a little bit complicated, is that its not necessarily political speech that is going to cause a consciousness shift on this planet. I think it could be something that is much more aesthetic, much more textural, much more not obvious.
So yeah. I think personally as well – I’ll say one more thing because I’m like, yapping – I’m really interested in this resurgence of romanticism and this resurgence of plays and really getting back into this hand-crafted, really precious work that is totally a part of what’s happening with some artists here, and I definitely see myself bringing a more concert-dance element due to this line of work.
> What does that look like?
My training – I’m coming from more a conservatory as a background, I’ve been dancing since I was seven, I’ve had a very classical training compared to most dancers, and in some ways it could be seen as outdated, but I also went to a avant-garde dance school, so the whole time I was getting a classic dance background I was also studying art and studying critical theory and contextualizing my training, and living in Berlin, which, at the time that I came here had basically no regard for classical training, whether that be ballet or modern, I really had to defend the fact that I had spent most of my life learning these things and that I actually cared about them enough to continue doing it for seventeen years, and I got to a point where I found after so much, I mean that s kind of what I have to say, is that I didn't really find my voice in the performing arts community here, worked for other people, I did sound design for very well known choreographers, I then ended up performing for them, but then I found my authorship in my voice more in the art realm, but as someone that's bringing concert dance back. With all of the knowledge of what’s happening in contemporary dance and art, but also not letting go of what I fell in love with about the art of choreography, which for me, improvisation is not the end of be all, and there are people who would argue with me, that to choreography something is to kill dance, and I’m definitely more on this side of almost being a composer, I still think that this relationship of composer and dancer exists in the dance world, and I still hold onto that.
But you had said something about performance art, something about, you had a piece in mind that you wanted to talk about.
> Did I? Sorry, I don't remember, sorry my brain is…
It’s okay.
> I think that it’s really interesting, that there is, in you, this strong push against the “dance world” and towards the “art world” – because we can’t use those boundaries without defining them anymore – and I wonder how you can be so grounded and at the same time pushing those boundaries, it seems almost like you are grounded in a trans-boundary action, which I aspire to.
It’s interesting that you put it in those terms – there are two things actually that come to mind. I feel like it also has to do with being mixed race, with living in such a stratified context of growing up in suburban Californian in a very white surrounding but being African American but also being very light-skinned, I definitely have experienced this literary themed character the Tragic Mulatto, I don't know if you’ve come across this, but it’s like a Mulatto that neither belongs to the black nor the white, and in a lot of literature ends of committing suicide because it doesn't belong to either society, and…
> That's terrible…
I know, it’s tragic, but it’s actually kind of interesting because even in contemporary, like for instance – I don't know if this is getting of topic or not, you can stop me if I am – but for instance like Assata Shakur, the famous black panther that escaped jail and is living in Cuba, but the United States is desperately trying to bring back, I really lived up to her as a hero and I read her memoir, autobiography, and she talks about mixed race people as just a symbol of the rape that happened during slavery, and that's actually still even recently, I’ve seen things come up in the Black Live Matter movement of people claiming why is black skin so stigmatized to the detriment of white skinned black people, it’s really kind of a weird thing, because obviously there’s a way of bringing, legitimatizing and bringing a loving equalization to all skin colors without putting down certain people, and having Obama as the first mixed race black president, who actually never talked about Mulatto heritage, he was always the “black” president, that was really a kind of strange moment for a lot of mixed race people that identified with him. So anyway, as far as being grounded in this kind of lack of – It really comes from this kind of identity politic that I occupy, and then the second thing is just life drawing modeling. I’m also doing life drawing modeling, and I feel like that is such an art form that has been hardly mentioned. I do it wherever I go because it's a good job, but it’s actually been a good way for me to continue making money, but also it helps me actually as a dancer.
> I have a friend who has done it here, but I feel like it is something that would be very transformative and interesting.
I’m looking for literature about, accounts of life drawing models because its such a – I feel like always the voiceless model, you always get – the credit always goes to the artist, and the voice always goes to the artist, but really it's a relationship that's built between these figures and I’ve just been so interested in figurative work and I obviously identify because I’m photographed quite often and I’m drawn quite often. I’m really interested in giving agency to the figure of art. Giving agency to the body as a performer in the artist’s work.
> This probably started post-war or half a century ago, historically in art, the model was just the vessel to show off the artists’ skill, and more and more the figure has gained agency, in things like budoh performance,
Totally, even the aesthetic of budoh but the practices, because its such a vast practice, but I think the philosophies are very, an undercurrent of Donna’s work, and in terms of the figure gaining more agency is also a progression of our work relationship. All of a sudden I’m creating music and I am dancing and I am bringing my own dance and practice within visibility of this world that she’s created, that we are creating together, so its definitely something that I know that we share an interest in, and then just the process of how I collaborate, I’m always really looking at the people, I pick people that I want to bring things out of and that I want to create relationships with and I want to bring it to life on the stage. It’s never about a preconceived idea that I’m just launching on people.
> This is kind of a completely different thread, I find that in America I find that the value of working hard simply to work hard leads to stress for the sake of stress, whereas here, in Berlin especially, there is no stress to the point that problems need to be created where they don't need to be. On a linguistic, social level, not on a larger scale, maybe?
I think it’s hard to make a blanket statement, but I do think that there are a lot of Germans that complain, a lot. I think that, well life’s not, everyone in berlin is watching, or I mean the people that I know at least, are watching what’s happening, you know, and we’re watching the U.S.’s election, we’re watching all of the terrorist attacks around the world, and a lot fo people fear that berlin is next, definitely. I mean, unfortunately, it makes a lot of sense. And I don't think that it’s fair to say that we’re living in some kind of utopia because we’re not. We’re very clear, or at least a lot of the people that I know, maybe I should just speak for myself, I’m clear about the problems that the world is facing and the real threats that are very near, and I don't think that its, yea, just because we live in a place where you don't have to work 9 to 5 doesn't mean that it's a utopia. But I mean the idea of creating problems is a person by person thing, and I also think I know people all over, from pretty much every city that I’ve been to that create problems for no better reason.
> It’s very human. Creating and discussing boundaries, contrary to popular belief, is not divisive, but shows how similar certain things are, and especially in today’s necessity for caregiving. Not enough people are comfortable with the divisions and what the differences are.
Completely. People often say that I’m a pretty that, I don’t want to say good-debater, but I really kind of press people. Like I can find the fault in people’s arguments really easily and they were kind of interrogating me why that is and I always say that I always just go a little bit left or right of the construction that they’re making because there is always an arbitrary wall that is built between people, and its not about going really far away and finding the opposite, but going as close as you possibly can to where the barrier is and trying to explain why its there and not a little bit to the left or right. And I think that’s the most fascinating thing about how people make divisions and how they make boundaries. I mean, why, I mean it gets a little more literal when you talk about countries and political boundaries and walls, but when you talk about ideas and concepts it's a lot more arbitrary
> Ideas and concepts and even the problem that a lot of anti-third wave feminists are having with, just because you’re a feminist doesn't mean you have to point out the flaws of men its not how boundaries or how crossing boundaries is supposed to work. You’re not supposed to be dividing more, that's not how it is supposed to work. That's also why I’m really interested in second wave feminism just focused on frau power. So I’m also thinking of gender and racial and demographic boundaries – is what I was thinking when I first came here.
I know a lot of trans people here, and also people who don't even consider themselves trans but other people might, but they are just not committed to the, I’ve always had a lot of friends in the queer community maybe I would go so far to say that I am part of the queer community. I guess probably yes. But I feel like, specifically with just following, specifically with my friends who are transitioning and taking hormones and just the support for them and how help can be conducive for them and also not, and listening and hear about their harassment because there is a lot of harassment that pretty much everyone who is cross-dressing, anyone who is transitioning or consider themselves trans have told me several times that they are harassed everyday and that's also interesting because berlin also has a history of being accepting and yet there are just so many people who live here and they confront a lot of bigotry and that's why I’m saying Berlin definitely isn’t a utopia and I think that it has been kind of drawn like that for some people that haven’t lived here before. I mean, we have all the same problems you find in any other place. I mean, I would say its like significantly less violent than other cities but violence comes in a lot of different forms.
> A completely different question – marriage as a system relatively intact in New York, failure is blamed on individuals, whereas here the system is condemned as flawed and outdated. When things go wrong, the system is targeted here, whereas here…
I think that really is true, I would say you’re really pointing to something – I think that, you definitely will find a lot more people in the city that are very clearly against capitalism, and that really, really believe in another way of organizing labor, and capital, and I think that that's much rarer to find in the United States. Part of that has to do with the education levels at large, I mean obviously New York City is probably a different case but I don't think that there is a lot of systematic critique in the United States and it’s something that, honestly, my first work out of college was all about systematic critique. I was really obsessed with systems studies and how systems were organized and also looking at regenerative organic system behaviors and self-organization were all principles that came into my choreographic language.
> Which systems?
Well, I mean, creating systems. That's what I’m saying, I mean systems theory can also just like, the idea of creating systems as a way of choreographing performances. I would create these kinds of models of systems that would be enacted by bodies, they were kind of abstractions of systems. Anyway, the reason behind how I got to that is literally because I saw so many dysfunctional systems that I was unfortunately brought up in and a part of. And, I have to say there are a lot of systems in Germany that, they might not be perfect, but they work a lot better than the ones in the United States and I can look back on my upbringing and understand why I was so obsessed with systems and dysfunctional systems and describing them through dance and choreography, as a way of being and mirror to the dysfunction that I was involuntarily participating in, whether that be the education system or also just growing up the way that I grew up, feeling like somehow things weren’t quite working.
> Is there a way to view that work?
I have “Birthing Self” (2014), which was actually the first piece that I did here. I would say, I I did student work which I’m not really trying to show people – I did one piece which was really the beginning of me studying systems was “Lessons in Composing Chaos” (2013), which I got commissioned by my school to do, and it was my first kind of evening-length piece, and it was this idea of like actually smooth and striated space that Deleuze and Turning wrote about these kinds of understanding, organizations of space and textures, and then I did something that was mush more about propaganda and that was my graduation piece and I would say all of those things kind of lead up to the first piece that I made in berlin which was six months after I got here, the “Birthing Self” piece at Acker Stadt Palast and this was the first time that I felt that I executed a system as a choreographic piece and it was the system of intelligent choice and it was a feedback loop, and all the dramatic and choreographic elements were basically made to be a model of intelligent feedback – so, a feedback loop of the model of intelligent choice.
> What does the model of intelligent choice refer to?
I’ll send to you a diagram – it’s basically a really complicated picture-slash-graph to express how someone decides to act in an environment, and it’s about interaction between the exterior trigger and the receiver.
I dated a philosophy major who was a masters and PhD in philosophy, and it was a good timing for me and really awesome for me to get so much information and get so into philosophy at around the time that I did, which was eighteen, nineteen, twenty, and it really informed my entire choreographic education.
> I think anyone can really tell from speaking with you. Thank you so much.
This was the interesting interview I’ve had. Usually they’re not actually listening and I think that's a problem, because I think that makes for a weak story. You’re not actually documenting anything, you’re just filling in characters into your story.
I think it’s hard to make a blanket statement, but I do think that there are a lot of Germans that complain, a lot. I think that, well life’s not, everyone in berlin is watching, or I mean the people that I know at least, are watching what’s happening, you know, and we’re watching the U.S.’s election, we’re watching all of the terrorist attacks around the world, and a lot fo people fear that berlin is next, definitely. I mean, unfortunately, it makes a lot of sense. And I don't think that it’s fair to say that we’re living in some kind of utopia because we’re not. We’re very clear, or at least a lot of the people that I know, maybe I should just speak for myself, I’m clear about the problems that the world is facing and the real threats that are very near, and I don't think that its, yea, just because we live in a place where you don't have to work 9 to 5 doesn't mean that it's a utopia. But I mean the idea of creating problems is a person by person thing, and I also think I know people all over, from pretty much every city that I’ve been to that create problems for no better reason.
> It’s very human. Creating and discussing boundaries, contrary to popular belief, is not divisive, but shows how similar certain things are, and especially in today’s necessity for caregiving. Not enough people are comfortable with the divisions and what the differences are.
Completely. People often say that I’m a pretty that, I don’t want to say good-debater, but I really kind of press people. Like I can find the fault in people’s arguments really easily and they were kind of interrogating me why that is and I always say that I always just go a little bit left or right of the construction that they’re making because there is always an arbitrary wall that is built between people, and its not about going really far away and finding the opposite, but going as close as you possibly can to where the barrier is and trying to explain why its there and not a little bit to the left or right. And I think that’s the most fascinating thing about how people make divisions and how they make boundaries. I mean, why, I mean it gets a little more literal when you talk about countries and political boundaries and walls, but when you talk about ideas and concepts it's a lot more arbitrary
> Ideas and concepts and even the problem that a lot of anti-third wave feminists are having with, just because you’re a feminist doesn't mean you have to point out the flaws of men its not how boundaries or how crossing boundaries is supposed to work. You’re not supposed to be dividing more, that's not how it is supposed to work. That's also why I’m really interested in second wave feminism just focused on frau power. So I’m also thinking of gender and racial and demographic boundaries – is what I was thinking when I first came here.
I know a lot of trans people here, and also people who don't even consider themselves trans but other people might, but they are just not committed to the, I’ve always had a lot of friends in the queer community maybe I would go so far to say that I am part of the queer community. I guess probably yes. But I feel like, specifically with just following, specifically with my friends who are transitioning and taking hormones and just the support for them and how help can be conducive for them and also not, and listening and hear about their harassment because there is a lot of harassment that pretty much everyone who is cross-dressing, anyone who is transitioning or consider themselves trans have told me several times that they are harassed everyday and that's also interesting because berlin also has a history of being accepting and yet there are just so many people who live here and they confront a lot of bigotry and that's why I’m saying Berlin definitely isn’t a utopia and I think that it has been kind of drawn like that for some people that haven’t lived here before. I mean, we have all the same problems you find in any other place. I mean, I would say its like significantly less violent than other cities but violence comes in a lot of different forms.
> A completely different question – marriage as a system relatively intact in New York, failure is blamed on individuals, whereas here the system is condemned as flawed and outdated. When things go wrong, the system is targeted here, whereas here…
I think that really is true, I would say you’re really pointing to something – I think that, you definitely will find a lot more people in the city that are very clearly against capitalism, and that really, really believe in another way of organizing labor, and capital, and I think that that's much rarer to find in the United States. Part of that has to do with the education levels at large, I mean obviously New York City is probably a different case but I don't think that there is a lot of systematic critique in the United States and it’s something that, honestly, my first work out of college was all about systematic critique. I was really obsessed with systems studies and how systems were organized and also looking at regenerative organic system behaviors and self-organization were all principles that came into my choreographic language.
> Which systems?
Well, I mean, creating systems. That's what I’m saying, I mean systems theory can also just like, the idea of creating systems as a way of choreographing performances. I would create these kinds of models of systems that would be enacted by bodies, they were kind of abstractions of systems. Anyway, the reason behind how I got to that is literally because I saw so many dysfunctional systems that I was unfortunately brought up in and a part of. And, I have to say there are a lot of systems in Germany that, they might not be perfect, but they work a lot better than the ones in the United States and I can look back on my upbringing and understand why I was so obsessed with systems and dysfunctional systems and describing them through dance and choreography, as a way of being and mirror to the dysfunction that I was involuntarily participating in, whether that be the education system or also just growing up the way that I grew up, feeling like somehow things weren’t quite working.
> Is there a way to view that work?
I have “Birthing Self” (2014), which was actually the first piece that I did here. I would say, I I did student work which I’m not really trying to show people – I did one piece which was really the beginning of me studying systems was “Lessons in Composing Chaos” (2013), which I got commissioned by my school to do, and it was my first kind of evening-length piece, and it was this idea of like actually smooth and striated space that Deleuze and Turning wrote about these kinds of understanding, organizations of space and textures, and then I did something that was mush more about propaganda and that was my graduation piece and I would say all of those things kind of lead up to the first piece that I made in berlin which was six months after I got here, the “Birthing Self” piece at Acker Stadt Palast and this was the first time that I felt that I executed a system as a choreographic piece and it was the system of intelligent choice and it was a feedback loop, and all the dramatic and choreographic elements were basically made to be a model of intelligent feedback – so, a feedback loop of the model of intelligent choice.
> What does the model of intelligent choice refer to?
I’ll send to you a diagram – it’s basically a really complicated picture-slash-graph to express how someone decides to act in an environment, and it’s about interaction between the exterior trigger and the receiver.
I dated a philosophy major who was a masters and PhD in philosophy, and it was a good timing for me and really awesome for me to get so much information and get so into philosophy at around the time that I did, which was eighteen, nineteen, twenty, and it really informed my entire choreographic education.
> I think anyone can really tell from speaking with you. Thank you so much.
This was the interesting interview I’ve had. Usually they’re not actually listening and I think that's a problem, because I think that makes for a weak story. You’re not actually documenting anything, you’re just filling in characters into your story.
contact tarren: [email protected]
donna huanca: http://www.ruaminx.com/
peres projects: http://peresprojects.com/
donna huanca: http://www.ruaminx.com/
peres projects: http://peresprojects.com/